I have heard it before but I heard Lindsey Graham who I can't stand quoted again as saying he does not want Republicans to be known as a party of angry old white men foaming at the mouth. The party no one wants to see let alone listen too. Too late! As they see themselves decline and with no chance of recovery they desperately look for ways to be young again. It is just like watching someone get old in a nursing home desperately trying to get out. Think about it!
You know the Cheney tag team rove and others are pounding on Obama on the torture issue. Obama is now being accused of back sliding by both party's for not doing as he said he would when he was running and that was in this instance to be transparent. Both sides are using the fact that he said he would be transparent against him. In this instance it is in regard to his saying he would release additional torture photos and it is coming from the left.
This is not back sliding. It is not a reversal, he is merely engaging brain which those with selfish interests are incapable or unwilling to do. I told you, Obama is on his own! This is merely a temporary wise stay as now is not the time to release additional photos of Americans torturing. Knowing a Presidents seeming penchant in damaging the US image the photos will come out and they will work against us. Whack! Thank You Sir may I have another! I just do not know any more.
Obama has largely done a great job but has not pleased me or any of us all the time. I disagree with a lot of his decisions but I am apprehensive to call a lot of this "back sliding" He is merely regrouping fortifying waking up to the reality that he can not act as quickly as he would like. At least I hope!
Pelosi and Reid like many complicit Democrats are as guilty as Cheney and Bush. Obama is being criticized because Gitmo has not been closed yet and now for not releasing the additional torture photos that would only serve at this time to give the MSM something else to talk about and to further divide and anger the country let alone what it would do in the Islamic world or anywhere else.
The timing of releasing the tapes right now is just wrong with Memorial Day right around the corner. President Obama is finding his limitations are many and his options few.No matter what he decides to do it will be declared wrong and endangering America by Cheney, Rove, and the rest of the Reich wing fear mongering Republican extremist agenda.
Again this is another given. By now I have said it numerous times but it must be obvious by now that Obama from day one has been set up for failure. If and when it does happen failure they worked for will be used by Republicans to regain control and finish us and their new disorder off. We must be smart enough to resist this from happening.
Obama is being accused of not releasing the photos as if he made the decision on his own. He was advised and rightly so I say not to release them at this time. General Odierno said no and Gates advised not now as it would endanger troops and Americans in general. Obama did campaign on transparency and it may be an excuse but now says he will not release them now as it will start anti American fervor all over again. For now I will reserve judgment and give Obama the benefit if doubt assuming he is simply doing the right thing and engaging brain before acting!
I am really impressed! We are not the only ones against water boarding. Jessie Ventura is seething. He was livid that Cheney continues to go on Fox and justify torture. I have to ask, when will Republicans be smart enough to pull the plug on the destroyer of their future? Ventura who as you know is no shrinking violet, speaks his mind, and is more than capable of backing it up. Ventura says he wishes he was President because torture is illegal and he would water board everyone that said otherwise. He would water board Cheney until he admitted to the Sharon Tate murders. I am sure he would. That would make Manson happy any way.
I have to ask! Why are those photos by the way in our bet interest? I know what was done and that it came from the top. I don't deem it in my best interest to fan the flames oh American hate here and around the world. Only to Partisans and MSM seeking to capitalize off the mayhem. Our Commanders in Iraq say attacks will increase up to 200% if the photos are released. I don't know about that, the so called terrorists already know they exist and that Obama declared them milder than those already shown. Obama said they are not sensational but do not agree with standard army behavior.
Word is that what Obama is really doing is slowing down the prosecution of torture. As if they needed any help! I believe they will raise more ire and consternation in the US than they will around the Islamic world. The pictures will show it was not a few Rogue soldiers as was the original lie by Cheney Rummy and Bush but that it came from the top as we knew. The pictures should at least go too a commission and for once an honest commission. America being America though, those pictures will leak out like everything and as expected appall America and the entire world. Another anti American can of worms has been opened.
Obama can not stop their showing now. Only the courts can. It is my own belief that they will with hold them in the name of our national security interest and then Obama will have his excuse for not being transparent. The courts won't allow me. What a novel move huh? Cheney stupidly as usual says the country must stand up to Obama. Maybe so but not in being against torture. Cheney says because Obama says it does not make it right. Liz backs him up saying Obama id cozying up to and siding with the terrorists. What is going on? What happened to secretive quiet Cheney? I'll tell you, he lost his puppet Bush! Whether we are attacked again or not and we will be, I will be indifferent. It will not be a reaffirmation that Cheney was right it will be because Cheney instigated it.
* In closing! We should not torture. Another attack will eventually happen anyway. I do believe that if the clock was ticking and I had the person with the information in my custody on a horrendous attack I would do whatever it takes to stop it wouldn't you? However Bush and Cheney put us in the fray. They lowered the standard. After the hearings two days ago we now have the proof from a CIA interrogator that torture does not work.
Information was being given until the water boarding started. Abu Zayda did not divulge actionable information. After being water boarded 83 times ha knew he was not going to be drowned. He simply started playing his interrogators game. He gave them information they wanted to hear. Even McCain said he did it too. I told you a study should be done on how much actionable information was attained if any versus conventional torture methods. Sounds sick doesn't it? I can't believe we are talking about this!
James Joiner
Gardner, Ma
www.anaveragepatriot.com
16 comments:
I call it the new world order! Hah!
Hi Anna
Yeah you can only laugh, you mean the new world disorder and it gets worse all day long!
Post 9/11, with reports of further imminent attacks looming, Justice was asked to determine where the line was regarding interrogation. What's the farthest we could go within legal boundaries. That was their job and they made a decent attempt at it.
We want the CIA to be an aggressive agency that does what is necessary within the bounds of US law to protect us. Sometimes those things aren't pretty and people get squeamish when they learn what it is our intelligence agencies really do in our name. Those same people are the first to cry about "intelligence failures" when we get attacked.
Unfortunately, the Obama amateur hour has now neutered the intel agencies and politicized them beyond all recourse. It's the 70's all over again. His releasing the first set of memos was disastrous and his handling of the affair has been wholly incompetent. The most "offensive" (to some) of these techniqes were stopped some time ago. Do whatever you need to do internally, but only a complete buffoon releases our playbook to the enemy in a time of war. If you're going to do something ridiculous like restrict the CIA to techniques described in the Army field manual, that's one thing, but we don't need to publicize the fact.
Cheney's offensive against Obama's mishandling of the interrogation issue has been effective. It has accomplished two things: pressured Obama to do the responsible thing for once and not release pictures that would only serve to further inflame, and place Pelosi in a position where she may very well lose her position as speaker. Bravo on both accounts.
Hi Jason
You might be neutered but I'm not. The CIA did the right thing. That said everything has been done wrong since.
Water boarding was found to be torture during WW2. We found low level lawyers Bush since made Judges to write the torture memos. Still not the issue to me.
We lowered the standard is the issue to many but not me. I would not out and out advocate torture as we did but I would do whatever it takes to find the truth If i knew it was in my hands and Obama will do the same thing of course. That is all that should matter. Everything else is part of a childish Partisan game.
Jason,
A president's lawyers don't legislate or interpet law. If Obama had a lawyer saying it was legal for him to kick little old ladies, who do you think would buy that?
Don't you think the Nazis and Japanese who tortured in WW2 also claimed they did "what is necessary " to protect their country? Rationalizations are offered by every criminal for their crimes
The Bush/Cheney illegal torture program did NOTHING to protect America. You notice only the advocates and creators of the program defend it, along with Fox and the rest of the radical right. Where's the objective impartial support? Why do you think Cheney had the interrogation tapes destroyed? And don't give me their line about "protecting agents". If what they did was legal it's not an issue. Their identities could've been protected. (Unless Cheney wanted to punish them like he did with Valerie Wilson.)
The whole mess is a propaganda tool for recruiting more enemies.
Jim,
I think we could use the contested photos as part of our investigation process and convey to the world our efforts to stop such practices. If we are the "good guys" why should we deny the truth? The pictures are not going to portray us any worse than those images of the mutilated bodies of Afghan civillians after a US air bombing.
Thanks Dave
Yeah for sure! Despite the lies from both sides the truth is now out and it can not be put back in the bag. Somehow this will all come out and as usual everyone that is guilty will be let off with one excuse or the other. I am just so sick of this shit!
On your last part the reason looks clear that the only reason they waterboarded (tortured) him 83 times was to get a link to Saddam and 911 and this was all done even before the memos came out in 2002. The memos and rules came in 2003. So they did this totally illegally. My displeasure with Obama at present is that he is going ahead with the faux military trials something even the military lawyers said was a sham. As for the photos they'll be out shortly if they have been declassified but it will take a law suit under the FOIA. This only prolongs the enevitable. It would be much better to get them out now and let the outrage settle so that we can move on. I've see enough of the actual people who did the interegations. They all seemed to come to the same conclusions that torture did not work. That they had cooperation from Iraqi higher ups after the U.S. invasion without any coersion indicated torture doesn't work. The same held true with other captives. The republicans need to quit watching 24.
The photos that have already been released, include photos of people that died while being tortured.
Testimony given under oath by those involved, tell us that many other people died while being tortured.
We can guess at this point that more photos will prove that this was the case.
White House Attorney John Yoo, testified that it was legal for the President to crush the testicles of children with pliers if he thought he had a good reason.
In light of these documented FACTS, it's very difficult to think of these actions as legal, in any light.
We executed Japanese Soldiers that tortured prisoners to death. How then, can we argue that we can legally torture people to death?
Jason how can you think that torturing prisoners until they die, is legal? And if you believe it is, then wouldn't be legal for other nations to torture US soldiers to death, if they thought it was in the interest of their National Security?
Wouldn't the Chinese have a compelling argument that if they capture US Servicemen again, that they have a legal right under US Law to detain and torture them indefinitely?
If the Chinese renditioned you for some reason, wouldn't they have a legal right to torture you to death, if they argued that it fit a National Security Purpose?
Finally, we actually bought a lot of those prisoners. We offered a million dollar reward for suspected terrorists. We know for a fact, that many of the people delivered to us weren't terrorists. They were people that local officials wanted to get rid of. Some were simply guilty of stealing goats.
But for political purposes, they were worth a million dollars, because filling quotas, satisfied political agendas.
Dave, I agree with you.
If the USA did nothing wrong, then photos will prove it.
Obama is simply trying to block investigations into criminal wrong doing. He's protecting the war criminals.
He might as well, by allowing the war crimes to continue, he's also guilty.
Demeur
I am so sick of the lying and cover ups! I do remember when we were questioning prisoners in 2002 under rumor that we were looking for an excuse to attack Iraq. I never thought torture though until it has come out of late. It pisses me off that now the issue is not torture but ass hole Pelosi lying. I want to scream!
Thanks for covering this so well. It's all vexing me all the time. I am constantly pissed off. And I'm getting really tired of the left savaging the left at every turn. Do we really eat our young? Do we weaken every real leader we have? Give us a chance people. It can't all be done in just a few months. We have at least four years. So let's back off the drum beat for Pelosi's head and Obama's ass on a platter. Back off folks, it will unfold in time and then we can crucify our own if we still need to.
Hi Utah
I hope you are well! It seems like it. Both sides are after Pelosy right now though one Dem is backing her up and come to find out the CIA like everyone else lied because Bush was the decider.
It is sick. The conversation is not about the illegal torture, Cheney, Bush, or Gonzo. It is all about Pelosi supposedly lying about knowing about it too.
Cheney and the rest have been after her for years saying a woman leader of this nature is not normal. They smell blood!
Now that we are learning the Big Dick ordered waterboarding to elicit false confessions about the false Saddam/Al Qaeda link, we will see this whole Pelosi distraction fade.
There goes their whole "ticking bomb" scenario rationalization. They completely politicized torture.
Jim--
You say this is not the right time to release the photos? When is the right time? I gave the reasons for why I felt the photos should be released in my post, 'What a Dolt', yesterday.
My post tomorrow will highlight the opinion of WaPo's Karen Greenberg, on why Obama 'back-pedaled'. You may call it 'engaging brain', but it is back-pedaling. All the excuses that you, Obama, and all the 'messiah-worshippers' are putting forth are merely assumptions. And contrary to all the scholarly assertions of the 15th century and before, The world is NOT flat. ;)
Obama is a very intelligent man. He is well-spoken and chooses his words, and stances, extremely carefully.
My post tomorrow should shed illumination on your confusion.
Peace and Grace, my friend.
Dave
Like we were in every instance with the scums we knew we were being played. It really pisses me off. Repugs will continue to try and make Pelosi the Issue but it should be about okaying torture to get an excuse to attack Iraq!
Hey Brother
Just before memorial Day is just a time Repugs will greatly use against Obama as to release.
At this point it does not matter to me. We did it and we will pay the price. The photos have to come out now but even though Obama says they are mild, they will damage us and the right will make sure even though they at the very least are not innocent!
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