Saturday, April 18, 2009

Tortured over the torture memo's!

Video: USA: Release of CIA interrogation memos

Former Bush Officials Warn Against Release of Legal Memos on

Disappointment with US not prosecuting CIA

1973 Church Committee Hearings, on CIA misdeeds, and the 1984 Iran/Contra Hearings Once again we show we have not learned anything. We did this before and you know things only got worse for us!

You know by now that Obama has ordered the release of the terror memo's, the torture tapes.Civil rights lawyers warned Napolitano on releasing the documents showing the targeting of Muslims but she had no choice as Obama ordered their release. I have to agree with them. It seems to me that the danger to us and our troops has now jumped exponentially.I do not think releasing all this information was a wise move. This will only serve to piss of Islamists, terrorists, whatever you call them, even more.

I am against torture to start with but I have a horse in this race! Three of my sons are in the military. I do not like the idea of them being tortured to start with. I was upset when Bush and Cheney came out and said torture was okay as long as you helped the country. I started worrying about my sons being tortured because of them. Now I am worried that Obama releasing this information to the public will now endanger them and us even more think this was a wise move.

The justice departments release of the brutal techniques used routinely at Guantanamo under Bush and Cheney will only work against us. What the hell are they thinking. This will please no one on the right or the left not to speak of the Islamists, terrorists, or whatever you call them.

Okay lets talk torture! Water boarding we have discussed many times. That most definitely is torture and there is no gray area there. However sleep deprivation? I can handle that. If that is torture I guess that is a kinder gentler version. I will take that to having my finger and toe nails pulled out any day. We knew about the water boarding and sleep deprivation for quite a while but throwing people against walls what the heck is that? Slapping? Nudity, confinement with insects, sleeping in coffins, that is torture?

Stress positioning, throwing cold water on you? Beats the hell out of hot water. As I said, I do not know if that is torture. Maybe in one set of eyes but not another but any way you look at it I can not see putting this information out there as being good for us. We could have told the CIA and the world there is a new cop in town and what was done in the past will not be done again end of discussion.

Obama said he wanted this information out so we could get it all behind us. I am not sure it was not to make Bush look bad and make him look good. He also said no one will be prosecuted which I do agree with. They were only torturing. They were only doing what they were told seriously. Bush and Cheney should be held accountable and tried. Obama said they were only keeping us safe. That I take issue with. It was not their fault but I do not think torture kept us safe but endangered all of us exponentially both civilian and military!

Releasing this information sounds like a bad idea to me and not because of what I hear proponents say. They say so called terrorists now know how far we can go and will train accordingly. BS I say! They have learned first hand that an American President will do whatever it takes to keep America safe. At least that is what we are led to believe. I think if they just look at Obama the man they know he is no Bush and there will be no torture. This does get the left off his back and I disagree with most of what was done but it seems like "just say no" would have sufficed.

This will now weaken us in many ways! Detailing the CIA tactics under Bush makes him look bad and Obama good, that seems like the only motivation. It will really help in forming Bush's image and legacy. That I like! I like that more of Bush's brutal policies have been laid bare. All in all I like this for that reason and nothing else.

* In closing! Obama says releasing the torture memo's was because because that was a dark chapter in or history and now it is behind us and we can move on. I disagree! It was behind us and we did move on. Now it has been published and it will continue to haunt us. What the hell was he thinking or did I already hit it? All sides are now going to be up in arms and not just Muslims. Obama is being called hypocritical and is getting it from the left and the right. From the left for denying prosecution of Cheney and Bush? From the right because they feel we are more vulnerable now. Me I am confused and don't know how to feel. I can't wait to hear from Cheney about Obama encouraging another attack. More later I am sure!

James Joiner
Gardner, Ma


Demeur said...

I have to disagree with you. To prevent this from happening again it needs to be prosecuted. A crime has been comitted and it doesn't matter what Obama says about it as if it's just something to be reflected upon and swept under a rug. This was a crime. After reading the latest news release it looks like the Judiciary will be investigating and by further comments by the comittee it looks like there will be prosecutions. To do otherwise would be to ignore the laws of the land. But all of this is something Pelosi should have taken care of five years ago with an impeachment and trial of Bush and Cheney. Think of the lives that could have been saved.

Unknown said...

I have to disagree with you, Jim. Prosecutions should be carried out. There is a long list of widespread precedent. The Nuremberg Trials, Biscari Massacre Trials, and later, the Mai Lai Massacre Trials, et al all determined that 'just following orders' is no basis for a defense.

In the U.S.-led prosecutions of the Japanese after WWII in the Tokyo Trials, Khabarousk War Crimes Trials, and the Nanjing War Crimes Tribunal, et al, thousands were executed, and many thousands more, given life sentences or some prison time, for torture that was exactly defined as what the Bush's Adm did. It doesn't matter what YOU consider to be torture. Precedent has been repeatedly set, and the irony is: It was set by the U.S. Government. The Tokyo Trials alone produced 920 executions. 'Just following orders' was deemed no defense.

Do you not see the double standard here?????? Can you not see the hypocrisy???? And I'm not even calling for executions, only prosecutions. Why is the serving of justice different for the Japanese and for the Americans????

If you have a horse in this race, Bud, and are worried about it, then you should be concerned with bringing it home to the paddock where it belongs, instead of worrying about it's safety at some distant, hostile track.

OK, I'll shut up now. :)

jmsjoin said...

I have always been pissed at Reid and Pelosi for being enablers. Not just the torture but no part of the lie we were living under Bush should be swept under the table but it all will be!

jmsjoin said...

I would love to see them held accountable for their crimes but they won't be. We can only imagine the rest of the shit they did we will never know the truth about. Knowing nothing will happen to those idiots I think we would have been better off just saying it is done and move on. I think we can at least trust Obama ehhhh a little more than Bush anyway!

Unknown said...

Immunity from prosecution should have been held as an ace-in-the-hole, as it was meant to be used. G. Gordon Liddy was an anomoly. Almost all of these 'tough guys' that performed the torturing are authoritarian in nature. Faced with the very real possibility of doing 'hard prison time', those cowardly pukes would be singing like a flock of canaries. Most of those b*stards are nothing more than panty-waisted schoolgirls. It's easy to torture someone in handcuffs, or held in captivity, surrounded by a bunch of like-minded jack-booted thugs.

Most are nothing but egotistical p*ssies. I doubt that even one of them would have the balls to confront a bunch of terrorists alone, and grind out a cigar in the palm of their hand to demonstrate their 'toughness' as Liddy did; nor to do prison time to protect their bosses.

With Obama removing the Sword of Damocles from above their heads, these chickensh*t *sswipes have little to no incentive to turn on the 'higher-ups'. What Obama has done borders on treason in my opinion.

This is not about partisanship or retribution; this is about upholding the 'Rule of Law', something Obama swore to do less than 90 days ago. How soon he forgot his oath! His words are still burning in my ears...... "No one is above the law". That's one of the main reasons I voted for him. If this wasn't so tragic, it would be comical. Methinks he just might be trying to reserve some of these abusive powers for himself.

Don't be misled, for one moment, my friend, that Obama could not/would not declare martial law and bring Neo-Fascism to fruition in this country, especially since he'd be the Fuehr-in-Chief. Remember the old 'Wolf in sheep's clothing' saw. To me, his grandiose rhetoric holds little water when you take his actions into account.

"Better than Bush", you say? Time will tell. Don't review the book soley by it's cover layout.

I know, I know.... I'll shut up again. ;)

BTW---I put up an interesting take on the piracy issue today. Take peek and let me know what you think. Try to be gentler on me, than I was on you. :) You know I love you, Brother.

jmsjoin said...

It is my belief that Obama will be forced by the right to declare martial Law, watch! They are getting worse every day. I just heard McCain's campaign manager say it is time to allow gay marriage and welcome them into the party as it is shrinking. WTF?
I do not by the way think those that tortured should have gotten immunity period starting right from the top!

Dave Dubya said...

I just wish those dems were as lenient with the rest of us as they are with republicans and torturers.

Holder still wants to punish medicinal hemp usage.

We have a rogue government as long as they take justice and impeachment off the table.

jmsjoin said...

I'm telling you, they must have a pact because this is all BS. They must all have so much dirt on each other it keeps them dirty and us in the dark.

Karen said...

Here's my thinking on the situation ...

Initially I thought Prez O should hold Bush/Cheney accountable for all war crimes they committed. But to drag all that out now with trials, etc. would dominate Prez O's next four/eight years thereby crippling his efforts on getting anything done.

I feel he did the right thing by releasing the memos since his candidacy was built on being honest and open with the American people.

And, I don't believe this will endanger our military any more than they are now. Our enemies already know all the tricks of the trade when it comes to torture. I don't believe we're telling them anything they already don't know.

landsker said...

The gruesome details of torture that are now emerging are somewhat more stomach-churning.
Obama has little choice to acknowledge the tempest of global opinion that is most decidely against the Anglo-american "axis of liars".

Substantiated examples of men being chained and shackled, naked, fully conscious, whilst their bodies and genitals are being sliced with a scalpel.....whilst all the while being questioned, flown from place to place, under the direction of both the CIA and MI6. (Links and thanks to an american blog.)
Factor in the prisoner abuses of Abu Grahib, the bombing of civilians, of Mosques and homes...the outright lies of WMD`s that initiated the "war on terror", and one can see little reason why the Muslims are suddenly going to "welcome the troops with flowers".

Here is an extract from the diary of the man, Binyam Mohammed, detained at Guantanamo
...and it makes me sick to think that both your taxes and mine help to pay the wages of the perpetrators of this sick and twisted affair.

"Not in my name", must surely be the right way for us to view this disgusting facet of Anglo-american endeavour.

jmsjoin said...

Hi Karen
You could be right. I hate to see those scum get away with every crime they committed. I do not want to detract from what Obama is doing of course. He could assign A commission or Senators.

jmsjoin said...

That is really sick. I heard Gitmo described as professionals doing their job and Abu Grhaib as Reservist thugs. To me I do not think they were keeping us safe at Gitmo and at Abu Grhaib it was not led by thugs but on the ground level some were immature and unprofessional!

Karen said...

Another thought...

Even if Prez O wouldn't have released the memos, they will be available via the "Freedom of Information Act".

Unknown said...

The FIA does not cover classified information. Had Obama not de-classified them, they would not have seen the light of day.

He released them as a 'bone-throwing' ploy. In my opinion, it was a mistake without a follow-up prosecution. Many are saying we need an investigation. Believe this: Obama has already done an investigation, he just doesn't want to make it public record, as it would be incumbent on him to prosecute. This could very well lead to his undoing.

Karen said...

Before Prez O made the memos public, they would have been declassified. It was just a matter of time, the lawyers were working on it.

jmsjoin said...

Yeah you are right Karen!
Obama goes into the lions den today to discuss this with the CIA as the Repigs make the cry even louder. I hate this crap!

jmsjoin said...

I think it was a spit in Bush's face as much as anything!