First I want to say Rest in Peace Ted Kennedy 1932 - 2009! Now!Unplugged: Uncovering CIA Interrogations
US prosecutor named to probe CIA prisoner abuses
Administration Releases More of Long-Classified CIA Report on ...
Who will take the fall and will it go to the top like it should? Cut it off at the head doesn't only apply to killing snakes! All right this is a good start and I believe appointing special prosecutors is a waste of time and money but believe Holder will do this right for once. A federal prosecutor will be appointed to investigate the mishandling of terror suspects by the CIA. Holder said this will be narrow in scope but that is a start.
We saw narrow in scope when Clinton was investigated for Whitewater and we ended up with Monica Lewinsky and Impeachment under Ken Starr? We are now hearing of CIA threats to kill suspects kids. One terrorist suspect was told his Mother would be sexually assaulted in front of him. One was told his family would be killed.Waving a handgun next to a prisoners head, revving a power drill next to his head while shackled and hand cuffed' whether you agree with it or not this is torture!
I am sorry! I believe torture or not the CIA and the interrogators should not be held accountable. They were doing what our misleaders told them was okay and to do whatever you have to. I can agree with that if American lives are at stake but tell the friggen truth and let the chips fall where they may. Bush Lawyers who okayed this torture and Cheney, Rummy, and Rice, who gave the go ahead should be prosecuted period.Not the interrogators who were doing what the misadministration told them to do and that they thought was covered legally.
Cheney, Rummy, Rice, the Attorney General, they are the ones who should all be held accountable. They were the lying underhanded enablers in all the Bush misadministration injustice. They should not get away scot free but I expect they will. I think it is great that officially the White House is staying out of this and they must. I am sure Bush pundits made a deal with him that there would be no prosecutions by him of higher ups.
I think it is not only calculated but great that the White House is staying out of this. This is perfect because Eric Holder will take charge. The special prosecutors will start with the interrogators and go right to the top. As you know I think the interrogators thought they were protected so should be disciplined but keep their jobs. However when they do get to the top heads should roll and holder is the man to see it through!
Holder said only techniques not authorized by the CIA should be investigated. Supposedly firing guns on the other sides of prisoners cells so they would believe they would be shot was something else that was not authorized by the CIA but that authorization order is what should be closely perused. If the CIA did not authorize it the interrogators should be prosecuted if not go right to the top and prosecute them to the limit of the law!
So far I have heard 10 to 20 cases must be looked at. Robert Gibbs said President Obama does not want anyone that was following the rules to be investigated. Those who were using drills and guns beating prisoners with flashlights etc. torture or not were not following the rules. Cheney himself said said we would use anything any means available to them. He is the one they should end up going after. Cheney is still lying and saying torture worked though we know it brought disinformation and no actionable leads. I am sick of the lies!
To my knowledge the CIA never tortured before. Under Bush and Cheney they broke the rules and the order to do so came right from the top. It is old news that Cheney gave them permission. He should be tried, not because he did it but because he is lying. If you say or do something admit it and let the chips fall where they may. No big deal!
In closing: Leon Panetta has threatened to quit! I firmly believe the interrogators unless rogue should not be prosecuted. This 5 year old lie should be held against Cheney and the rest of his gang of lying misleaders. The investigators were generally doing what they were told and thought was covered by the law. Rummy and Cheney were the misleaders. They are the ones who made the investigators who were doing what they were told think they were above the law, They did not have a choice! Cheney and Rummy did and they are the ones who ultimately should be prosecuted.
James Joiner
Gardner, Ma
www.anaveragepatriot.com
18 comments:
Although I agree with your assessment that those at the top should be prosecuted, I disagree that the low-level interrogators should get off scot-free.
It has been set as precedent at the Nuremberg Trials, Tokyo Trials, Khabarovsk War Crimes Trials, Nanjing War Crimes Tribunals, et al (at the behest of the United States), that 'following orders' is no grounds for defense. Once again, we are witnessing the double standard that America lives by.
The low-level interrogators had a choice. They chose filthy lucre (their jobs and the power that goes with them) over common decency. These people are now claiming a de facto insanity defense; they knew right from wrong, and did it anyway. Saying they were only following orders or flawed legal opinions is bullsh*t at best, out-right lying at worst. The ones who perpetrated these atrocities are not a bunch of mental retards, they knew what they were doing was immoral and despicable.
What escapes most people, is the fact that most of them are inhumane, sadistic individuals, who actually took a perverted enjoyment out of torturing those people. Bogus legal opinions only paved the way for them to fullfil their blood-lust.
Many refused to participate and were fired, reprimanded, or in other ways punished. It's strange how little we hear about them in the corporate-owned MSM.
If the bank foreclosed on your house and your lawyer told you you were justified in handing a note to the teller to recoup your loss, you would still be prosecuted for bank robbery. You'd be found guilty because you broke the law, regardless of the legal opinions your lawyer gave you.
Torture is not only against the law, it is morally wrong. So anyone who tortured someone, regardless of their justification, is morally bankrupt and should be taken out of society. They should not be labeled as 'victims', nor 'heroes'. They should be treated as the vermin they are, and locked up for the good of humanity. As an American, are these the type of people you want acting in your name? I have more respect for the crack dealers in the inner-city.
America has sunk to lows that I could never have imagined possible; and being the skeptic that I am, that is saying a lot.
Well, that's my opinion anyway.
This is only 1/2 the mess that's about to break. I wonder what the DOJ will do about this:
http://demeur.blogspot.com/2009/08/long-awaited-sibel-edmonds-deposition.html
If they only go after the, as you say, 'misleaders' it's going to take forever, I would like to see justice done, but 'we saved American lives . . .national security . . .making our country safe' is going to be their defense.
The people who will say 'I was only following orders' have some responsibility too. Everyone in those positions should have morals and ethics. It would be interesting to know if anyone said 'sorry sir, I can't do that, it's illegal' perhaps something else we will never know the answer to.
The Special Prosecutor is going to have take a very creative approach if he is going to get the culprits. They have their roadblocks all ready.
To say our government doesn't torture? You might recall the military's use of LSD to gain info. Or the government injecting people with VD to see the effects. Guess you forgot about those things.
I'm in complete agreement with Brother Tim. Wrong is wrong.
Besides, the best way to get the Cartel bosses is to charge their underlings and get them to turn state's evidence on their superiors. Those "just following orders" can redeem themselves by plea bargaining and informing on the thugs in the Pentagon and White House.
NO ONE should be allowed to get away with torture. We will be haunted forever if we let them off.
Don't you think it's really interesting that those who actally have had to endure torture or torture-like methods are more likely to show understanding towards those executing it than other preople?
And those who say it's all totally wrong and terrible and who are sure that they never ever would do such a thing and who condemn everybody who's got anything to do with that kind of thing are in my opinion just blocking out parts of the entire act.
Now don't get me wrong, I think it's very clear that all of you people here are such good hearted, decent and nice people who definitely care about others and are trying to lead decent lives as well. That is all very admirable and puts you absolutely in the cathegory of those who are most valuable for mankind.
But sitting at home, watching the news is something very, very different than actually being in theatre and being confronted with an enemy who couldn't care less about ROEs, the Geneva Conventions or other agreements and laws of war. And they're gonna play dirty - in every possible way. You can be sure of that!
I'm not gonna say torture is okay and we should practice it frequently from now on, but putting a taboo on it, condemning it publically and courtmarshalling those who used rough interrogation methods will only have one result: they're gonna get better at doing it covertly!
Also: think about which motivations those have who are into the business of "exposing".
I agree the corruption of the Bush administration should not be left rewarded, there should be some consequences for those on the top who had the nerve to sink this low and be this manipulating, greedy and corrupt.
But in terms of torture... what you have written in your post James sounds pretty mild to me. You guys should really take a look at what is standard procedure amongst those enemies who the US and NATO troops are confronted with! Our soldiers have to respond to that - in a language which the enemy does understand. And they will - there where we don't see it, they will just pick up an AK-47 and get it over with and there won't be an investigation, because it's just a pretty normal thing to do. Problem solved - outside of where the media looks!
Hi Brother
The entire History of our Nation has been betrayed by those asses. God forbid if they get back in to continue their agenda.
Even Reagan passed a law against torture. That whole fascist misadministration was a misnomer! My not You are right about all of it especially those with blood lust but I do think those that were just doing what they were told should be disciplined but not tried because that would destroy the agency I think!
Hi Demeur, that link did not go anywhere but I did see your blogspot indicated so I will be by to see what the hell is up now. Thanks!
Hi Holte
I can see this going for years and the truth never found. Plus we are doomed if the right gets back in and you can bet they will put an end to any so called truth commission.
Hi Demeur
I remember those things but I was thinking in the context of war. You are right we have done some pretty screwed up things.
You guys are right but I do not want to see the agency destroyed because at least I think it serves a purpose.
Hi Sarah
I am an out of sight out of mid do whatever it takes kind of guy but keep it to yourself. Officially we do not torture but I would let no man screw with me and would do whatever it takes to stop it. I believe when all is said and done even the nay sayers would do anything to protect themselves!
What an individual might do to protect himself or his family is a little different than state sponsored violence. I would do anything to defend my family with a clear conscience. Whatever consequences come my way because of my actions, I would endure.
Holte, many an honourable gentleman thinks the way you do and for those who haven't looked behind the scenes your attitude sounds like the only sensible and decent one to have.
But once you know exactly what the enemy is doing, how they on such a grand scale keep their oponents down, what torture methods they use on a daily basis and once you've met their victims and see what they have done to their bodies, their minds, their families... you might get a different perspective on the subject of torture and subpression and the fact that if we don't step in sooner or later we're not gonna have any more freedom on this planet anywhere.
But the problem is of course "state sponsored violence" as you call it. Well if it was only that, I wouldn't have such a problem with it! It's in fact much worse. Sick bastards like Bush&Co have their own sick allies who their sponsor until they then don't fit into their greedy plans anymore and then they all of a sudden call them terrorists. Before that it was all fine with them, what they did!
So the thing that's a problem here are corrupt administrations, politicians and business people.
Plus amongst those who execute the actions that we as the people aren't proud of are sick animals who do it all for the wrong reasons - for blood thurst or because of sexual perversion or for revenge.
Those people should definitely be courmarshalled - and for more than one reason! You can not have a soldier representing the US or a NATO country acting that way - it's completely disgraceful! And how on earth is perverted conduct and disrespectful attitude gonna produce some reliable intel?!
But those who work on it with the right intentions should not be panished for doing their job even if they at times have to do things which aren't in agreement with the conventions of Geneva. But that is something anyway which should never become public ever... all the public has to know is that there are situations where preventive measures are the only chance to avoid a desaster and the loss of many civilian lives.
It's BS James, that the CIA (or whoever else under the US government)has never tortured before. And the KGB and other filthy agencies have also been really, really good at it! You should have seen what they even did to children!!! or their general brainwash programs on the entire population...
And in terms of self defence... well I also noticed that many men claim to want to fight to the rest for their families and some do even think it's justified to kill for their possessions. Personally I would not kill that quickly, I'd rather negociate my way out of it and I also find it much easier to defend others than myself. I am willing to go quite far if it's for the greatest good, but I don't have that ego-drive where I have to survive at any cost, because I know just how quickly one will come to regret that.
As for interrogation: a scilled interrogator who has his ethics in and who's only intention is to serve mankind and see to that human rights get obeyed knows of a wide range of possibilities as how to get to a suspect without actually having to harm him physically. Negoticating is one of them, playing tricks on the suspect is another one. Nowever, I must say, I find the mental aspect of torture and psycho terror much worse than the physical harm inflicted on a victim.
And the psycho terror is a very widely spread activity, everywhere in society and for me personally that's perhaps the greatest evil in the world, because hardly anybody can resit it or even dares to see it for what it is.
Hi Sarah
Thanks for your input! I am sure we tortured during WW2 but it was done clandestinely while officially staying above the fray for the public. Disingenuous yes but do what you have to I say!
Sarah - I am not as naive as you suggest, I have traveled to most parts of the world, lived and worked in 7 countries, journeyed behind the Iron Curtain in 1960s, and south-east Asia in the early 1970s, been in places with dictators as their 'beloved leader' I have seen things I wish I hadn't, If am idealistic, my experiences made me that way.
There is always hope for better but it seems history always repeats itself and we never learn a thing from it.
Amen
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